Sulfitt som tilsetning i øl

Finn Berger

Moderator
I klassikeren Principles of Brewing Science skreiv George Fix i innledninga til kapittelet om oksidering: Additives to cover the effects of staling have been used in the past, but since about 1990, there has been a declining interest in them. Potassium metabisulfite is an example. ... Bisulfites work by binding with staling aldehydes to mask the presence of the latter. Unfortunately these bonds are rather short-lived in beer, and, when they are broken, the staling aldehydes fully reveal their presence. Worse still, the bisulfite component can undergo other reactions that produce unpleasant H2S and/or mercaptan notes. (PBS, andre utgave 1999, s.127)

Nå ser det imidlertid ut til at sulfitt blir brukt ganske mye, både på den varme sida og ved lagring etter endt gjæring, og det hadde vært interessant å høre hva slags erfaringer folk har med det.

Jeg trur det er en vesentlig forskjell på bruk ved fating med trykkkarbonering, og ved naturlig karbonering, der aktiv gjær produserer CO2'en. Jeg flasker alt ølet mitt, og da jeg prøvde å bruke sulfitt, opplevde jeg det Fix skriver om, nemlig at ølet blei sterkt prega av usmaker, og da særlig H2S (råtne egg). Det er visst ikke så merkelig, for kombinasjonen aktiv gjær og sulfitt er nokså uheldig: It is well known that sulfite is the direct precursor to hydrogen sulfide, and active yeast are known to create the sulfide in the presence of sulfite. (See hydrogen sulfide for more information.) Given the mixed results experienced by home brewers and the science to understand why, we do not recommend adding sulfite to beer at packaging. Spunding is a better alternative to reducing oxygen exposure, and it is mutually exclusive with adding sulfite at packaging. (https://brewingforward.com/wiki/Sulfite)

Altså: Aktiv gjær danner H2S av sulfitt, så om du flasker ølet ditt, er det en dårlig ide å bruke sulfitt. Men er det - som kilden her sier - også best å la være å bruke det uansett hvordan du karbonerer og lagrer?

Det har jeg ingen erfaring med, men det finnes det sikkert flere andre som har:).
 
Innafor lodo-brygging (low dissolved oxygen), som tar sikte på å eliminere så å si all oksygenpåvirkning på den varme sida, dvs. fram til ølet er nedkjølt, er tilsetning av sulfitt til meskevann , og eventuelt til skyllevann, ett punkt på lista over tiltak. Mange bruker nå et produkt som er populært i lodo-kretser. Det heter Antioxin SBT, og inneholder i tillegg til sulfitt et tanninprodukt (Brewtan B)og ascorbinsyre (C-vitamin). ) Da er det viktig enten å klare å beregne sulfittmengden slik at det ikke er noe igjen av sulfitten når du kommer fram til gjærtilsetninga, eller - hvis du er usikker på om du klarer det - å tilsette oksygen til vørteren og la det stå noen minutter før du tilsetter gjæren. Poenget er at gjæren vil produsere H2S og eventuelt andre illesmakende stoffer dersom den får sulfitt - og det må sjølsagt unngås.

Nå er det flere av oss, trur jeg, som bruker Antioxin B uten å ha gått til bunns i alle detaljene omkring lodo-brygging, og det kan jo være greit å være klar over denne risikoen. Dukker det opp svovelusmaker, kan sulfitten være årsaken.
 
Bamforth skriver "Some Brewers will add antioxidants at this stage, such as sulfur dioxide or ascorbic acid (vitamin C), but they are seldom especially useful at this stage." s. 163 i "Beer Tap into the art and science of brewing" (andre utgave fra 2003)
Jeg slutta å bruke SMB etter å ha lest det, mest fordi jeg ikke syntes jeg fikk pulveret inn i et fat fullt av co2 uten å eksponere for luft.
 
Bamforth skriver "Some Brewers will add antioxidants at this stage, such as sulfur dioxide or ascorbic acid (vitamin C), but they are seldom especially useful at this stage." s. 163 i "Beer Tap into the art and science of brewing" (andre utgave fra 2003)
Jeg slutta å bruke SMB etter å ha lest det, mest fordi jeg ikke syntes jeg fikk pulveret inn i et fat fullt av co2 uten å eksponere for luft.
Mener han å bruke svoveldioksid (H2S) som antioksidant? (edit: Jeg surrer, H2S er hydrogensulfid) Det må da være en slip of the pen? Hvis ikke, er det noe viktig jeg ikke har fått med meg. Antioxin inneholder i alle fall sulfitt, ikke H2S. (edit: sulfitt er ikke svoveldioksid, heller.) Og H2S mener jeg bestemt det gjelder å unngå så langt mulig.Det blir vel tydelig her, også: https://www.lallemandbrewing.com/en...ts-new/impact-of-hydrogen-sulfide-in-brewing/

Antioksin SMB er forøvrig laga for bruk på den varme sida, ikke ved pakking:https://www.aeb-group.com/media/cat...s/us/ANTIOXIN_SBT_TDS_EN_1281019_BEER_usa.pdf
 
Sist redigert:
Svoveldioksid er SO2.

Jeg måtte sjekke hva pulveret mitt var. Det er ikke SMB, men E224: K2S2O5 - campden pulver. Det regner jeg med gir samme resultat som tilsetting av SO2( som er en gass)
 
Svoveldioksid er SO2.

Jeg måtte sjekke hva pulveret mitt var. Det er ikke SMB, men E224: K2S2O5 - campden pulver. Det regner jeg med gir samme resultat som tilsetting av SO2( som er en gass)
Uff - det var pinlig surring. Også jeg som har laga så mye H2S :p .

Campden er sulfitt, ja.

Svoveldioksid er brukt som konserveringsmiddel - men jeg har ikke sett noe sted at det er aktuelt for hjemmebryggere. Og jeg veit ikke hvor lett tilgjengelig det er, heller. Finnes i flytende form.
 
Sist redigert:
En av mine favoriter fra Bamforth - video finnes på edX - the sience of brewing.
Du kan lese det han sa - om sulfit kommer lit lenger ned.

Nici



My name is Charlie Bamforth.

I'm a distinguished Professor Emeritus from the University of California Davis. I joined the brewing industry in 1978, the Brewing Research Foundation, spent quite a few years with the Bass Brewing Company and for 20 years was the professor of malting and brewing sciences at UC Davis.

So, what I like to talk to you about is flavor stability, freshness, which is probably the biggest technological challenge facing the brewer today. Because the simple reality is: beer is going to change its flavor. I've lost count of how many different substances contribute to the flavor of beer. It's probably at least a thousand. If you get a detectable change in the contribution of any one of those, then the flavor of the beer has changed and therefore it's gone away from what it should be.

That by very definition is flavor instability.

One of the fundamental questions is: how important is it? There's a lot of stale beer that is drunk across the world, because there is a lot of beer that's being exported and it's traveling vast distances through all sorts of different conditions to arrive at a marketplace and then it is marketed as being a little bit of Belgium, or a little bit of Holland, or a little bit of England, or a little bit of Japan, or something. And frankly, the beer tastes nothing like it did back at home base, because it's aged. So stale beer is not going to kill you. It just isn't what the brewer originally brewed.

So it's a philosophy.

Do you make a thing out of it, do you worry about it? Do you try to do whatever you can to overcome the problem? Or do you just accept it? Like a winemaker would say: 'Why, it's vintage' or 'It's matured' or whatever, it would do. You could say: 'Oh, I've got a, you know, ten year old Pilsner'and celebrate it. - You don't! - 'Oh yes, I do, I paid a phenomenal amount for it, cardboard, delicious!'

So you could tell all sorts of stories. But most self-respecting brewers want their beer to taste just like they expect it to taste. There's a lot of efforts given by many people to keeping the beer fresh. And there are really three fundamental approaches that a brewer can take to maximize the flavor life of the product.

The first of these is to get the oxygen level in the final package as low as possible. If I was giving this talk 10 years ago, I would have had a higher oxygen target than I would now. The bottom line is: the lower the oxygen level, the better. So investment in the packaging facility is critical to try to get the lowest possible oxygen level.

The second thing is: beer in a can basically is going to have a longer shelf life than beer in a bottle. Now, a lot of people psychologically don't like to hear that, because they don't think a can is as classy as a bottle. Now when you fill a can, you can't quite achieve the low oxygen level you do in a bottle. But that is the end of it. No oxygen can get into a can, but oxygen can get into a bottle and it goes in between the neck of the bottle and the crown cork. So progressively, the oxygen level is increasing and that is a prime agent making beer go stale. The tighter the seal, the better.

The second general thing that you can attend to or should attend to is the temperature. There's a guy called Svante Arrhenius, who a long time ago now showed the relationship between temperature and the rate of a chemical reaction.

The simple rule of thumb is: if you increase the temperature of a chemical reaction by 10 °C, then that reaction will go between two and three times faster. Now, there's a lot of beer being shipped around the world and it's being exposed to some fairly ridiculous temperatures It can go through cycles of going up to say 40-43-44 °C for days on end, depending on how it is moved and how rapidly it is moved.

That's not good for flavor stability.

But if you go the other way: it's a great thing: keeping the beer cold! So if you go to 10 °C, we're talking 9 months. (comparing rate of reactions that slow down) Now this is an approximation, but 9 months. And if you're in a refrigerator, refrigerator temperature, you buy a lot of shelf life. There are brewers that are shipping the beer around the world in refrigerated containers. Now it's expensive. There's quite a sizable carbon footprint behind it, but in the interest of keeping beer fresh, it really is the way to go.

The third generality is sulfur dioxide or metabisulfite.

Now it can work in two ways. One is that it actually is a radical scavenger, so it protects against the damaging forms of oxygen. But the second thing is, it grabs hold of the substances that tend to be involved in aged beer, the substances involved in old beer. Many of them contain what is called the carbonyl group:

the C-double bond - O.

Sulfur dioxide will react with that and make what we call an adduct and the beer doesn't taste stale now. In fact, you can take stale beer and treat it with sulfur dioxide and clean it up. Now, over in the States, where I'm based, there's a labeling requirement and you have to put onto the label "contains sulfite'' if there's more than 10 milligrams per liter of sulfur dioxide in that product. So there's a limit to how you can go.

But an old friend of mine from the industry insists that 8 is better than 7, which is better than 6 ppm, which is better than five ppm, so to maximize the SO2 as high has you can, without running the risk of going too high.

So what about these carbonyl compounds: where do they come from? Well, they can come from the breakdown of the bitter acids, so the iso alpha acids. They break down to your carbonyl substances.

Well, people don't like to hear that. because there's not a solution which is: 'Oh well, we'll keep the beer fresh; we'll get rid of the bitterness' - You can't do that! Alright, so they can come from the breakdown of amino acids. Well, that's inconvenient, isn't it? Because we need amino acids to make good beer, because the yeast needs the amino acids. So people don't like to hear about that. So they ignore that.

Alcohols: higher alcohols, like 3-methyl-butanol or propanol or indeed ethanol. They can break down to give carbonyl substances. Well, that's unfortunate, isn't it? Because we need those alcohols, either in terms of alcohol, because it is ethanol but also because they are the precursors of the esters, which are important for flavor. So people don't like to hear that! So they ignore that!

So they all focus on unsaturated fatty acids. Everybody does the research on unsaturated fatty acids. Because unsaturated fatty acids break down to give E-2-nonenal, which is this classic cardboard flavor. They say: 'Well, this is the whole story!' But it isn't! And indeed, you can make E-2-nonenal in other ways as well. You've got different carbonyl compounds that come from other sources and they all react to give E-2-nonenal. So it is not only unsaturated fatty acids.

I will never forget going to a big meeting in Milwaukee once, and they gave me a fancy title, which was 'a critical control point analysis of beer flavor stability' and I said: 'Keep out the oxygen, keep it cold.' 'Are there any questions?'

And people were saying: 'Well, what about the brewers who have invested in brew houses that minimized oxygen uptake?' And I said: 'If you haven't invested in the finest packaging equipment to get the lowest oxygen levels, and if you haven't invested in refrigerated distribution, there's nothing you can do in a brew house. There's nothing you can blame the maltster for that is gonna give you flavor stable beer.'

So with flavor stability, you've got to start at the end and work back. You got to start with the customer really: is the customer being tempted to buy vast amounts of beer because it's really cheap in a supermarket? And then they're buying it and they're storing it under ridiculously warm conditions.

Beer is going stale. So, a lot of science is dedicated to unraveling all of this chemistry, but if you don't get the fundamentals right: looking after the beer and doing the logistics and keeping the oxygen level down and the temperature down in the finished product, there's not no point in worrying about what happens in malting or in the brew house.

You have to decide:

Do I worry about flavor stability? And if you do, then my recommendation is to start at the end and work back. And in terms of what the brewer can do, that is: package the beer with as little oxygen as possible, avoid the presence of things like iron, copper and manganese and ensure, wherever possible, to hold that beer cold right the way through its lifetime.
 
Jeg tilsetter jevnlig metabisulfitt (va 1/4g) sammen med gelatin på 1-2 C, i lagere og IPA/NEIPA, med kun på ølene som går på fat.
Jeg tilsetter også sulfitt til søtede cider/hard lemonade, og de 4g pr fat.
Merker ikke lukt (egg), og syes det gir vesentlig bedre holdbarhet, (unngår pappsmak på lager, og humle varer lenger).
 
Jeg tilsetter jevnlig metabisulfitt (va 1/4g) sammen med gelatin på 1-2 C, i lagere og IPA/NEIPA, med kun på ølene som går på fat.
Jeg tilsetter også sulfitt til søtede cider/hard lemonade, og de 4g pr fat.
Merker ikke lukt (egg), og syes det gir vesentlig bedre holdbarhet, (unngår pappsmak på lager, og humle varer lenger).
Og det tviler jeg ikke på. Jeg trur ikke det skal være noe problem med sulfitt så lenge man ikke bruker for mye - når man sørger for at gjæren tar kvelden. Det er når du setter den i gang igjen med å gi den sukker at det går galt - sånn ser det i alle fall ut for meg ut fra de kildene jeg har funnet.

Marshall Schott er en iherdig svovelprdikant, for å si det sånt. Han bruker også cc og gelatin før svovling.
 
En av mine favoriter fra Bamforth - video finnes på edX - the sience of brewing.
Du kan lese det han sa - om sulfit kommer lit lenger ned.

Nici



My name is Charlie Bamforth.

I'm a distinguished Professor Emeritus from the University of California Davis. I joined the brewing industry in 1978, the Brewing Research Foundation, spent quite a few years with the Bass Brewing Company and for 20 years was the professor of malting and brewing sciences at UC Davis.

So, what I like to talk to you about is flavor stability, freshness, which is probably the biggest technological challenge facing the brewer today. Because the simple reality is: beer is going to change its flavor. I've lost count of how many different substances contribute to the flavor of beer. It's probably at least a thousand. If you get a detectable change in the contribution of any one of those, then the flavor of the beer has changed and therefore it's gone away from what it should be.

That by very definition is flavor instability.

One of the fundamental questions is: how important is it? There's a lot of stale beer that is drunk across the world, because there is a lot of beer that's being exported and it's traveling vast distances through all sorts of different conditions to arrive at a marketplace and then it is marketed as being a little bit of Belgium, or a little bit of Holland, or a little bit of England, or a little bit of Japan, or something. And frankly, the beer tastes nothing like it did back at home base, because it's aged. So stale beer is not going to kill you. It just isn't what the brewer originally brewed.

So it's a philosophy.

Do you make a thing out of it, do you worry about it? Do you try to do whatever you can to overcome the problem? Or do you just accept it? Like a winemaker would say: 'Why, it's vintage' or 'It's matured' or whatever, it would do. You could say: 'Oh, I've got a, you know, ten year old Pilsner'and celebrate it. - You don't! - 'Oh yes, I do, I paid a phenomenal amount for it, cardboard, delicious!'

So you could tell all sorts of stories. But most self-respecting brewers want their beer to taste just like they expect it to taste. There's a lot of efforts given by many people to keeping the beer fresh. And there are really three fundamental approaches that a brewer can take to maximize the flavor life of the product.

The first of these is to get the oxygen level in the final package as low as possible. If I was giving this talk 10 years ago, I would have had a higher oxygen target than I would now. The bottom line is: the lower the oxygen level, the better. So investment in the packaging facility is critical to try to get the lowest possible oxygen level.

The second thing is: beer in a can basically is going to have a longer shelf life than beer in a bottle. Now, a lot of people psychologically don't like to hear that, because they don't think a can is as classy as a bottle. Now when you fill a can, you can't quite achieve the low oxygen level you do in a bottle. But that is the end of it. No oxygen can get into a can, but oxygen can get into a bottle and it goes in between the neck of the bottle and the crown cork. So progressively, the oxygen level is increasing and that is a prime agent making beer go stale. The tighter the seal, the better.

The second general thing that you can attend to or should attend to is the temperature. There's a guy called Svante Arrhenius, who a long time ago now showed the relationship between temperature and the rate of a chemical reaction.

The simple rule of thumb is: if you increase the temperature of a chemical reaction by 10 °C, then that reaction will go between two and three times faster. Now, there's a lot of beer being shipped around the world and it's being exposed to some fairly ridiculous temperatures It can go through cycles of going up to say 40-43-44 °C for days on end, depending on how it is moved and how rapidly it is moved.

That's not good for flavor stability.

But if you go the other way: it's a great thing: keeping the beer cold! So if you go to 10 °C, we're talking 9 months. (comparing rate of reactions that slow down) Now this is an approximation, but 9 months. And if you're in a refrigerator, refrigerator temperature, you buy a lot of shelf life. There are brewers that are shipping the beer around the world in refrigerated containers. Now it's expensive. There's quite a sizable carbon footprint behind it, but in the interest of keeping beer fresh, it really is the way to go.

The third generality is sulfur dioxide or metabisulfite.

Now it can work in two ways. One is that it actually is a radical scavenger, so it protects against the damaging forms of oxygen. But the second thing is, it grabs hold of the substances that tend to be involved in aged beer, the substances involved in old beer. Many of them contain what is called the carbonyl group:

the C-double bond - O.

Sulfur dioxide will react with that and make what we call an adduct and the beer doesn't taste stale now. In fact, you can take stale beer and treat it with sulfur dioxide and clean it up. Now, over in the States, where I'm based, there's a labeling requirement and you have to put onto the label "contains sulfite'' if there's more than 10 milligrams per liter of sulfur dioxide in that product. So there's a limit to how you can go.

But an old friend of mine from the industry insists that 8 is better than 7, which is better than 6 ppm, which is better than five ppm, so to maximize the SO2 as high has you can, without running the risk of going too high.

So what about these carbonyl compounds: where do they come from? Well, they can come from the breakdown of the bitter acids, so the iso alpha acids. They break down to your carbonyl substances.

Well, people don't like to hear that. because there's not a solution which is: 'Oh well, we'll keep the beer fresh; we'll get rid of the bitterness' - You can't do that! Alright, so they can come from the breakdown of amino acids. Well, that's inconvenient, isn't it? Because we need amino acids to make good beer, because the yeast needs the amino acids. So people don't like to hear about that. So they ignore that.

Alcohols: higher alcohols, like 3-methyl-butanol or propanol or indeed ethanol. They can break down to give carbonyl substances. Well, that's unfortunate, isn't it? Because we need those alcohols, either in terms of alcohol, because it is ethanol but also because they are the precursors of the esters, which are important for flavor. So people don't like to hear that! So they ignore that!

So they all focus on unsaturated fatty acids. Everybody does the research on unsaturated fatty acids. Because unsaturated fatty acids break down to give E-2-nonenal, which is this classic cardboard flavor. They say: 'Well, this is the whole story!' But it isn't! And indeed, you can make E-2-nonenal in other ways as well. You've got different carbonyl compounds that come from other sources and they all react to give E-2-nonenal. So it is not only unsaturated fatty acids.

I will never forget going to a big meeting in Milwaukee once, and they gave me a fancy title, which was 'a critical control point analysis of beer flavor stability' and I said: 'Keep out the oxygen, keep it cold.' 'Are there any questions?'

And people were saying: 'Well, what about the brewers who have invested in brew houses that minimized oxygen uptake?' And I said: 'If you haven't invested in the finest packaging equipment to get the lowest oxygen levels, and if you haven't invested in refrigerated distribution, there's nothing you can do in a brew house. There's nothing you can blame the maltster for that is gonna give you flavor stable beer.'

So with flavor stability, you've got to start at the end and work back. You got to start with the customer really: is the customer being tempted to buy vast amounts of beer because it's really cheap in a supermarket? And then they're buying it and they're storing it under ridiculously warm conditions.

Beer is going stale. So, a lot of science is dedicated to unraveling all of this chemistry, but if you don't get the fundamentals right: looking after the beer and doing the logistics and keeping the oxygen level down and the temperature down in the finished product, there's not no point in worrying about what happens in malting or in the brew house.

You have to decide:

Do I worry about flavor stability? And if you do, then my recommendation is to start at the end and work back. And in terms of what the brewer can do, that is: package the beer with as little oxygen as possible, avoid the presence of things like iron, copper and manganese and ensure, wherever possible, to hold that beer cold right the way through its lifetime.
Jeg trur ikke jeg helt fikk tak i hva konklusjonen hans angående bruk av SO2 var. Det blei nokså teknisk inni der. Men det han sier til slutt, er vel at det du skal konsentrere deg om, er å stenge oksygenet ute.

Kjemikunnskapene mine er skrale. Men om jeg forstår det riktig, er ikke sulfitt og svoveldioksid det samme, men begge kan brukes som konserveringsmiddel, og vil reagere med oksygen. Og svoveldioksid kan dannes av sulfitt? Men det er vel bare sulfitt som stor sett er tilgjengelig for oss?

Ellers er vel Bamforth her klar på at så lenge du ikke har stålkontroll på oksygen ved tapping, er det meningsløst å bekymre seg for det som skjer på den varme sida. Jeg er ikke sikker på om jeg er overbevist om det - men jeg er ikke sikker på det motsatte, heller. Det betyr vel at jeg er nokså usikker:).
 
Kjemikunnskapene mine er skrale. Men om jeg forstår det riktig, er ikke sulfitt og svoveldioksid det samme, men begge kan brukes som konserveringsmiddel, og vil reagere med oksygen. Og svoveldioksid kan dannes av sulfitt? Men det er vel bare sulfitt som stor sett er tilgjengelig for oss?

Stemmer det at det ikke er det samme svoveldioksid (SO2) er en gass (brent fyrstikk), men sulfitt ionet (SO3(2-)) er vel det vi vanligvis forholder oss til.
Jeg syntes det høres rart ut at SO2 reagerer med oksygen, jeg tror det evt. er en veldig treg reaksjon til SO3. Resten høres riktig ut
 
Sist redigert:
SO2 dannes vel ved brenning av svovel - slik de som bruker eikefat gjør for å redusere oksygen - stemmer ikke det?
Jo. Men den prosessen forbinder jeg med desinfeksjon av fatene; husker jeg leste om det forbindelse med kellerbier. Men kanskje funker det som en form for purging, også?
 
Stemmer det at det ikke er det samme svoveldioksid (SO2) er en gass (brent fyrstikk), men sulfitt ionet (SO3(2-)) er vel det vi vanligvis forholder oss til.
Jeg syntes det høres rart ut at SO2 reagerer med oksygen, jeg tror det evt. er en veldig treg reaksjon til SO3. Resten høres riktig ut
Det stemmer SO2 er en gass og sulfitt er et ion, men det kan ikke ses helt uavhengig av hverandre. Om SO2 kommer i kontakt med vann,så løser det seg ganske lett og i store mengder og danner hydrogensulfitt/bisulfitt HSO3(-). Og om det er i basisk vann, dvs lut så får du sulfitt SO3(2-). Om du surgjør løsningen, dvs tilsette syre, kan du forskyve likevekten, det kommer SO2 ut av en hydrogensulfitt-løsning og du kjenner en stikkende lukt.

Gassformig SO2 oksideres ikke så lett til SO3, men dette skjer allikevel. Så SO2 er ikke særlig stabilt. Om du har oksygen i en sulfitt-løsning går det imidlertid noe lettere/raskere og dette brukes da for å fjerne oksygen fra ølet eller andre væsker. Dette kommer da i tillegg til at sulfitt reagerer med aldehyder som er ansvarlig for usmaken.
 
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